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tv   News  Al Jazeera  January 7, 2015 1:00pm-2:01pm EST

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task for the services and international cooperation between eu countries in sharing information and data they have and sharing potential data on key individuals will be paramount because you need cooperation to operate in a global terrorism. >> reporter: we will continue our conversation shortly, let's listen in to david cameron saying a few words about the attack in paris. [switching captioners]
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>> saying that both leaders of britain and germany have jointly called. they called the french president to offer their support after this deadly gun attack. on the in paris. we're listening to david cameron saying that the level of alert in the u.k. right now is severe, which is just one level below one step below critical. and television agencies watching event in paris very carefully. they're vigilant but the message they're seeking to convey is that events in paris this gun attack is an attack on the values that we all hold dear, he said values by which we stand values of freedom of the press freedom in general. and so that's really the sentiment we've heard from leaders from around the world. u.s. president barack obama said he stands in solidarity with the french people condemning what he described as horrific shooting.
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u.n. chief ban ki-moon saying the same thing. this is what we've heard from leaders around the world and political leaders in france as well. perhaps a sense of everyone rallying, a sense of unity. we've seen spontaneous rallies people coming together to express their condolences. to express their sympathy with the attack that took place. really everyone trying to really express that message of unity, and the rally not taking place just in paris but other major cities in france, and the expectations that we'll see more of these gatherings in the coming days and weeks. let's listen to this now from the day's events. >> reporter: amateur footage
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shows a rash of bullets. a policeman has been shot at point blank range. the machine are heard to shout we have avenged the prophet muhammad. he's thought to be editor in chief. he was reportedly killed along with a number of his staff. amid the chaos that followed the attack at midday paris time the president françois hollande arrived on the scene. >> it's just been committed here at the newspaper. the newspaper that stands for freedom of expression. >> the president announceed that it was in its highest state of alert. >> we have launched a series of
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measures to find the perpetrators. they will be hunted for as long as necessary. >> reporter: as bullets from fired, the police have not yet confirmed exactly how many people died in this attack. men arrived with three masked men at charlie hebdo they killed everyone inside. we estimate 10 to 11 people are dead. with two colleagues of ours, who has also died. >> an eyewitness describes the scene. >> i just got a glimpse. it didn't look like a terrorist car. then the car stopped across from where we were, and two guys with black masks got out and began shooting.
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[ gunfire ] >> more amateur footage filmed from a nearby building in the aftermath emergency crews rushed the injured from the scene, a number of them said to be critical. the french cabinet met in emergency session. there is now a massive manhunt under way. the black citron was later found abandoned. they determined that three attackers were involved, and its likely that the publication charlie hebdo has been targeted because of its satirical portrayal of political and religious leaders. >> let's speak with jackie roland now in paris where people are gathering in sympathy to express their solidarity with the victims of today's attack. jackie, what is happening there?
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>> reporter: it is a very big and spontaneous demonstration. several thousand people at a rallying point when the french would demonstrate. there are a great number of french flags and a great number of ban necessary. they'rebanners. this is an attack against freedom of speech, and therefore by extension it is an attack against everyone in france. other slowing slogans that we're seeing people holding up pens as a symbol, really. it's often said that the pen is mightier than the sword but today we saw a violent weapon used against journalistists. there is outrage and the idea that people are denying this,
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standing up, that's reallied mood of this spontaneous rally in the center of paris. >> what have we been hearing from the country's political leaders? >> very much an unified message that all resources are being called up now to hunt the three perpetrators of the attack, and also the support network in order to carry out this quite-well planned that was carried out in broad daylight. beyond that there is a call for unity. the description of this attack is an attack against french democracy and french values, and all french people to renewt at this time and reject the use of violence to try to silence opinions which may be going
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against the grain. indicating that nothing was off limits in france. that everyone should be able to express opinions freely. and that's very much the sentiment that violence can never be permissible to resolve these kinds of dispute. the idea that french society different beliefs, different opinions should be able to coexist side by side, but violence should never be a way by which that discussion should be carried out. >> very much the message of unity, a feeling of solidarity where you are jackie. but are there concerns about a potential backlash against a certain group of people or a certain community if you like, is there a risk of that? >> certainly the police are taking measures against acts of
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retribution. we're hearing--we're hearing that in fact security measures have been put into place outside of places of worship mosques. there are people who would second guess the investigation. at the moment no one has said who has carried out the attack. there are theories flying around but clearly authorities at the same time are wanting to track down the perpetrators and make sure that they're neutralized and guarded against similar attacks should french society should like to take the law into their hands that will be one of the focuses of the security forces in the coming days. >> jackie, thank you. something of a spontaneous rally is taking place a vigil with
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people there gathering together to express their condolences and sympathy for the victims of today's attack, and a message of defiance. the charlie hebdo office was busy when this attack took place. it was holding it's new year's meetings. the papers publishers say better also died. well the magazine charlie hebdo spent the last 12 years lampooning leaders but also organized religion as dominick kane reports. >> reporter: charlie hebdo had
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shocked and amused people every week causing controversy with satirical images and cartoons and articles. often with unflattering caricatures of politicians and other public officials. but in recent years it's been regularly criticized over its depiction of islam. in 2011 it renamed ms. charlie hebdo for one edition that has an article on the prophet muhammad. less than is it months later the editor spoke to al jazeera about what motivated him and his colleagues. >> it's been 20 years that we have quote/unquote been provocative on many different subjects. it just so happens whenever we
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have an article on islam we get indignant and violent reactions. >> he was one of those who died in this attack. the violence against charlie hebdo prompted police to provide security for some members of staff. something that the french president mentioned when he visited the scene of the crime. >> there can be no doubt that this was a terrorist attack on a newspapers that had been threatened several times in which it was protected because of that. >> in one of his last cartoons they talked about the lack of attacks in france so far. but now he and many of his colleagues are dead. dominick kane, al jazeera. >> joining me now from london is jodie ginsberg, thank you for speaking to us. how would you describe the nature of today's attack? >> this attack is absolutely
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appalling. it's chilling. our hearts and thoughts go out to the families and the staff of charlie hebdo. it clearly is an attack on free press, an attempt to stifle and shut down free expression. >> where do we go from here? do you expect to see with a sense of defiance within the public in paris right now, do you expect to see perhaps morallies, more gatherings around the country and perhaps around the world in solidarity of the victims of today's attack? >> i expect we'll see more demonstrations. they're gathering in london at at trafalgar square. we're already seeing an outpouring on social media. people tweeting the cartoons, of charlie hebdo. but in addition we need to make sure that we cannot let those
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individuals who want to use violence to keep free press and free expression from flourishing and succeed. we can't let that happen. >> let's go to washington, d.c. patty, a little bit earlier on we heard from president barack obama expressing his solidarity with the french people, but also saying that the u.s. would do everything it could to help track down the perpetrators of this attack. how unusual is it for the u.s. president to come out in this way in the aftermath of an attack like this in another country, and in another city? >> it's not unprecedented but it is unusual. we usually don't here from the u.s. president barack obama but france is an especially close ally to the united states. the president said that he was going to help them hunt down the people responsible. very strong language. we've heard from the fbi
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director he said that his agency is going to provide assistance to the french counter part. what does that mean? are they going to provide logistic reports? we don't know. we don't me if the ncaa is going to use their eavesdropping capabilities to help them. here's a little bit more of what the president had to say. >> france is one of our oldest allies our strongest allies, and they have been with us at every moment from 9/11 on.
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>> what about international reaction elsewhere. >> again, it has been unusual here. if you look across basically every corner of the globe we have seen religious leaders come out to condemn the attacks. here is a sampling of those who have spoken out.
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>> from the u.s. secretary of state a message of solidarity in two languages. >> we stand with you in solidarity and in commitment, both to the cause of confronting extremeism, and in the cause which the extremists fear so much and which is always united our two countries. freedom. >> the u.s. president issued a statement saying he's offered france any help it needs in its manhunt or investigation in the capitols of europe, condemnation and condolences. >> we stand squarely for free speech and democracy. and these people will never be able to take us off those values. >> the chief of the arab league stating islam denounces any violence. >> i want to express my outreach
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at the despicable attack against the french magazine charlie hebdo. it was a horrendous, unjustifiable and cold-blooded crime. it was a direct assault on the cornerstone of democracy on the freedom of expression. >> across the globe this is clearly being seen as much more than being just an attack. >> one of the central questions that many will be asking right now is perhaps what can they do to help. you would expect they would already be security cooperation in place between france and allies. how might that change or be strengthened in the aftermath of the attack. >> the question is what happens next. obviously in the early hours everyone is going to come out and offer support. they're going to offer their
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condolences. does that translate into any action? that is going to depend on who is responsible for this. once the people who carry outet attacks are hunted down. the question is are they part of a larger movement. does that move the world against that group if it turns out to be a group. those are questions that we don't know. from the u.s. perspective obviously we now know that what sort of surveillance capabilities they have, especially when it comes to europe and the european capitol capitols. they have been fiercely criticized by the european leadership, but they could be offering that assistance. i do have the ability to basically listen to everyone's cell phone calls and look through the internet traffic undoubtedly the ncaa right nsa right now the national security agency will be pouring through their surveillance. we don't know if they are able to help because it will be classified. >> all right patty. thank you very much.
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we can now speak to luke hellman, with a production company. i understand that your office is next door to the publication charlie hebdo. but you weren't present when that attack took place today. what is your reaction to this? how are you feeling? >> that is correct. >> they heard the shooting this morning. they called me saying that they had heard heavy, heavy fire the approach goes to the families of the victim.
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it's been a major attack on the freedom of the press that occurred this morning. our team of reporters concealed the door. these are pictures that might be seen in the next hours, the pictures have-released as we speak. we pretty much are under shock
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at this time it is a major attack on the freedom of the press. >> we know that this would have been--it would have been very busy time, if you like, within the charlie hebdo office. we know that the editorial meeting was taking place. you could say it was a very well timed attack. you are familiar with the layout of the building. can you give us a sense of what the attacks might have encountered as they burst into the office. what would they have seen? what would have been going on around them. >> we're encouraged, next to the people who are familiar with the
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area. once you get in on the second floor, once you get in on the second floor it's a dark corridor with office space. our door is first and then the second door is charlie hebdo. there are no security guards. they open fired once they interfered the office space. you're right that everything was going on. it was a meeting that was going
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on perhaps the attackers knew, and they would be able to see the newsroom and editors. it is a modest building, and honestly quite easy to get in. quite he is when they get in. the attackers were able to access the building. are you surprised there wasn't additional security?
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>> to be quite honest with you we were quite proud to have the charlie hebdo on our floor. it's a great place there is not the continuous presence, and have no particular security to
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the building. >> james bays joins us live from the united nations in new york. you heard them expressing their condemnation of this attack, describing it as horrific and blood thirsty. what further reaction has there been from the united nations? the symptoms of the u.n. security council taking longer than other world capitals. that's because 15 countries are respected. so all 15 have to sign up to a statement. there is a little bit of negotiations as there always is
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in the negotiations finding wording that everyone agrees with. they've done that, and a short time ago the chilean ambassador who is the current president of the security council read out the statement. >> good afternoon. i will give the following press statement of the security counsel on the attacks on french newspaper. >> on the seventh of january january, 2015, causing numerous deaths among journalists media professionals and the members
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of the security council has strongly condemned the terrorist attack targeting journalists and newspaper. the member of the security council express their deep sympathy and condolences to their families of the victim as well as to the government of france. the members of the security council underlined the need to bring you perpetrators to justice. the members of security council reaffirm the need to combat by all means in accordance with the chapter of the united nations threats to the national peace
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security caused by terrorist acts and that any act of terrorist, criminal, and unjustifiable regardless of their motivation wherever, whenever, and by whom so ever expressed it. >> we're hearing about combating terrorism. that's something that will already be on the radar on the agenda there at the united nations, but could we expect it to become that much more important, that much more of a spotlight on the wake of this attack? >> it certainly is an issue that comes up a great deal at at the united nations. there is a structure for that, and it is something that comes up regularly on the agenda of
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the security council. i'm sure we'll hear more about this attack in the coming hours. ban ki-moon is giving the beginning of the year address on thursday setting out his priorities of the year. i'm sure they're likely to refer to the attack in the speech he makes. a comment from the high commissioner of human rights, he echoed ban ki-moon's earlier words saying this was an attack on the freedom of expression. he went on, is this attack to allow free discrimination and prejudice this will play into the hands of those with clear aims towards society. and this cowardly act will be
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exploited by extremists of all sorts. >> all right james, thank you very much. diplomatic editor james bays at the united nations in new york. well staying with what we know so far. these are the developments. let's take you through the sequence of events. french officials have told us that 12 people--12 people have been killed in the attack of charlie hebdo. the magazine's editor are among the dead. thousands are gathering on to condemn the attack, and morallies are taking place in other cities across the country. political reaction french president françois hollande called it a barbaric act. he's meeting with the security cabinet. he said those responsible will be pursued as long as necessary. this is where the attack took place in paris at number ten in
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the 11th district in the center of the city. the police say masked men with automatic weapons entered the building around 11:30 a.m. local time and open fired. as they left the building they were confronted by police. at least one officer was killed at this point and the men fled in a dark gray car. the vehicle was later found abandoned in the 19th district in the city's northeast. the gunmen are still at large. there is still a massive manhunt under way to track them down. there has been condemnation as we've been hearing around the world of today's attack in paris. british prime minister david cameron said that the u.k. stands with france against terrorism. >> we stand absolutely united with the french people against terrorism, and against this threat to our values, free speech the route of it all democracy. it is absolutely essential that we defend that every day.
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>> at a desperate hour we stand by the french people, and all those who feel committed to the freedom of the press we stand with freedom of the press along with other basic freedoms we hold dear. >> we're live in london, jonah when we heard from the british prime minister earlier he said the level of alert in the u.k. is at severe. tell us more about the atmosphere in the u.k. capitol and what we've been hearing from the government. >> well, you heard the two leaders angela merkel a short while ago. both making those statements of con democrat nation offering solidarity and support of the french people. we understand that the two of them made a joint phone call to french president hollande
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earlier in the short visit by angela merkel. the point is when you look listen at those two leaders. they both know that france is not alone in being vulnerable, susceptible to this sort of attack. yes, david cameron as you pointed out there only in august of last year that the security services in britain have raised the threat level here to severe. that's one notch above the highest level of what it means. that an attack is highly likely. the security services are doing all they can but there is no single answer to attacks of this short. we must deal with radicalization in the communities where it begins and remains vigilant. angela merkel would know all that as well. tuesday in the city of december dent, 18,000 people gathered in an anti-muslim rally. something that has been growing for months now despite her own calls in her new year's address
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to the country for people to turn their backs on these sorts of protests, calling them racist so she too knows all about the levels of angler in their own country. this is proof of what can happen. >> jonah, thank you very much. live for you in london. let's look at pictures from the french capitol where people have been rallying in sport and solidarity with the victims of today's attack. this is traditionally a place where people come together when they want to express their feelings their thoughts about something. here we have people really expressing their sympathy, expressing their condolences with those that have suffered in point pointing out this is not just a particular attack. this is seen as an attack on the french identity, on french values, on democracy in the country. that is something that we've
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seen expressed by french political leaders and also by leaders around the world. so people gathering there not just in paris but also rallies taking place in many other cities right around the country and the expectation is that we will see more of these gatherings more of these demonstrations in the coming days and weeks in response to the sheer magnitude of this attack. a very significant attack some people are saying this is the worst terrorist attack that has taken place on french soil in some two decades. we can see people expressing condolences, and very much a message of defiance. this is the moment that the master attackers escaped. we want to show you the footage that we have. it was up loaded on social media. but a warning that these images are shocking.
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[ gunfire ] >> a single gunshot. the officer is shot dead. the gunman then thread their way back to a waiting car. they shout, and they run up the street. the shouting stops. things go quiet. they get into the car. they drive off right past the policeman that they just killed. joining me now from london is a terrorism and security analysts steve, looking at the footage there, it is shocking, it is extremely upsetting that the attackers shooting the policeman, who was already on the ground, at close range
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exposes the ruthless conditions. >> it's very audacious callous and very well-organized and planned. this does not happen in five minutes. it takes a lot of planning and preparation. something could easily go wrong. just down to even preps for traffic and get way for these guys. who knows what the foreplan was but it was clear that they had something to do, they came here to do it, and they left, which means that they were planning the execution of their evacuation procedures. these are something that will be practiced, something might show up on cc tv over the next few weeks. i would be surprised if it was their faces but it looks to everybody that there is some military precision i'm not saying that there are military people involved here, but i would say that there is a level and performance in training just the way they're holding their
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side arms in, their ak-47s. they're locked on to one bullet. not spraying bullets all over the place. they look highly professional. >> highly professional. well organized somewhat sophisticated. that would suggest some group some organization behind this attack. >> well, i think so. i think that's what the police are going to be frantically looking for what is hyped it, who is behind it. it is a communique coming over the wireless networks, other radios involved in this, a commanding control center or one person directing this whole event. it's clear what this event was about. that was to kill up in people. so that effects the entire media community as far as i'm concerned. and obviously being able to target a up in station that had
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already had threats which is obviously a high threat level. it's very series and difficult to carry out to their plan. but i imagine they defected that. >> steve park, do stick around. we'll come back to you in a you a few minutes. we want to talk to a freelance journalist at the rally that is taking place in the french capitol. what can you tell us about the mood around you about what is happening there? >> i've lived in paris for ten years, and there are demonstration there is all the time. but i have never witnessed anything like this before. there is a huge sea of people, not just the square but streets around. people are very somber. trying to make sense of it, really, it is such a shocking thing, and there is a real sense
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of shock and horror. people chanting freedom of expression and it's in solidarity. >> that's reflected in the pictures of what we're seeing and hearing right there. it's not just about expressing sympathy and expressing condolences. there is that sense of shock and concern, people still processing the magnitude of this attack. but there is also that sense of defiance isn't there with the slogan of the rallying cry of this gathering. >> yes, there are a lot of people who are holding up placards saying freedom of the press. at one end there is a cafe where people are standing silently holding the pictures of the face
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pictures of faces of hose those who were killed. they say these faces were known here people are holding up pictures of them, walking around silently holding a picture of the victims or a placard with a very simple message. it's something that is shared by people. here is a man in front of me, he has taped one of the cartoons, it's on his jacket. he's not saying anything. that's his message. i think that's shared by a lot of people here. >> when you see people in paris how would you describe the
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impact? >> a victory would be unprecedented. it stands for the republican values. it's interesting to see that they got together to defend freedom of speech. >> the location it is is symbolic. >> the footage was interesting because the national hymn of france that will not just take over this moment. not only are they showing the values of the republic, but also gathering of the french. >> it's still quite--obviously the attack happened many ours ago, but i guess people still trying to process what took place. do you think that awareness is have much there? people have it in the back of their minds that this could potentially play very nicely into the hands of people.
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>> it could backlash, also. people right now are in shock. we knew that could happen. and there is a history with a different movement with algeria and iran. but the last 20 years not so much. paris has been a peaceful city, and this feeling of calm and peacefulness perhaps has disappeared. as they try to get control of this and gather support, thanks it could very much backlash. >> we're starting to see signs of that starting to happen. there is an expectation that leaders would try to capitalize on what has happened in paris today. how much national consensus is there behind this rally and others that are taking place elsewhere in france? >> well, i believe it depends
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that it will take some distance. because all of the events and the investigation will play in our hands because the attackers. >> but she has not thrown her support behind what we're seeing right now? >> she's trying to play low key right now. all will depend on the capacity of françois hollande to be head of state. if he's not able to stand to this occasion definitely opposition will rally. to see people turn out to the ballot and vote for traditional parties against the rise the national as we've seen the last couple of months. >> what about president holland? he has been suffering from record-breaking low-poll
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ratings. there has been disillusionment in his country. >> he's going to call for national unity and he'll remind people that in the administration he has been fighting against terrorism internationally. he'll explain why he has done this and the wherein for it. he mentioned the memory of the journalists and what they were standing for which are the very vaults of his party and those he represent. his capacity to put together a new legal framework to pull information from people who are under surveillance right now. not to offer the flame to the critics that's going to be very interesting to see. >> we'll look at pictures coming in to us from spain. there you can see people
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gathering to really express their sympathy and their condolences with what we've seen in paris today. somewhat unusual to see it's not unusual that we see scenes like this in europe. often i guess from what we've been used to seeing. we talk about the likes of how politicians to capitalize on this. and being able to gain capitol from a weakening economy high unemployment wages there is a great deal of discontent. here we see people standing together scenes of unity scenes of solidarity. >> exactly. scenes of solidarity all across europe. remember when the events happened in madrid, there were matches in paris. and on those large events you have solidarity. most specifically, charlie hebdo
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was not a neutral newspaper. it was more left wing. so that explains why there is so much very fast support from different countries where similar parties similar movements will be able to mobilize population. it's interesting that they were calling up up in europe technocrats and calling up of people. and we may be seeing this in spain, for example or other movements in france and other countries. >> thank you very much. well now french television has released this amateur video. they say this was sent to them by a witness to the attacks. [ gunfire ]
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>> are you surprised there wasn't additional security presence within the vicinity, within that location? >> well, it comes unexpected. as we look at the video that we do, we can see the witnesses there is not much traffic in the roads. they seem to have a fairly clear run. these kinds of events where you have attackers having a single purpose. it's almost like a film set where there hasn't been that
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many people, and i think that will be planned because they were to get in to this job and leave. they weren't looking for a way out with guns. they were looking to get out very quickly. >> and what does that tell us about the sophistication of the attacks? they were not only able to hijack not one but two vehicles. in terms of the time that has lapsed steve does the likelihood of them being discovered or tracked down by security forces perhaps lessens a time progresses?
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>> they would have known the editors of the newspapers. they may have had photographs and visuals of them. they may have been led by someone who was patrolling them from a remote location. they may have had cameras on them who knows. with today's technology anything can happen. i think therefore once those officers knew they had been compromised i'm surprised that they didn't go to ground and hunker down and start to fight their way out. i would have expected much more of a gunfight in terms of them trying to defend themselves, the actual offices. knowing that someone would have gotten in the front entrances. i would have thought there would have been a protocol in terms of someone being able to give away. the fact that they were being forced to do something i.e.
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push the wrong number, some how give the code to someone to say that this is happening. so i'm surprised that was not put in place. on the second part of this, these guys will go to ground. they were obviously well prepared. they have body vests with pockets you can see. it was clearly either side arms or but with an evacuation plan, that includes everything, discarding everything, firearms, ammunition that could be pass a third and fourth person. just by hijacking a couple of cars that might have been to confuse and decoy we don't know yet. the way they took off in the car, they looked like they were composed and they were planned. therefore by kidnapping people, carjacking whatever its called, then there is a degree of panic in that because that's an
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unknown. that's something that people--you don't know what you're going to come across. that part of it would have been the danger point for the attackers. if the plaintiff's are looking for the attackers can get their clues and get them together quickly. the trail is there, it's whether they can hunt it down quick enough. >> you said that the attackers would probably be lying low at this point. is there a chance that they will not be found? >> of course there is every chance that they may not be fund. if they properly prepare, it's like a military unit going in to the green zone in afghanistan. they don't expect to be caught. they expect to leave with their lives. this is what it reminds me of, and it reminds my colleagues of,
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they're prepared. so they practiced. they understand that they may be sitting in a safe house for a couple of weeks or several safe houses. may have been organized for them to throw the police off the accident. it's very, very difficult. the next 24 hours will be paramount in order to finding the people who have done this, responsible for this. that could be a much bigger, longer story. the intelligence services, they will provide for the very individual agencies, collaborate and work together, and that is dealt with with a very very comprehensive police force in paris. i would imagine that it would have obviously give the chances for the attackers to leave. they can only minimize those
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chances. obviously if they can change their identity, stolen passports or different identities. >> steve-- >> if they're trying to-- >> sure. steve park, we appreciate you sharing your expertise and analysis. joining us live from london. let's bring you pictures coming to us now from paris the french capitol, this in the aftermath of the attack. we have seen people gathering there in a spontaneous rally in the capitol city. a sense of shock in the country. a sense of sadness, a country and city very much in grief in response to what has been described as the worst terrorist attack in the country in years. we've had messages and condemnation and support from political leaders in france, and from leaders around the world pledging to do whatever they can and take down the perpetrators. a manhunt still under way. our news conference coverage
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continues, stay with us. activated by this. this.
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>> it's a chilling and draconian sentence... it simply cannot stand. >> this trial was a sham... >> they are truth seekers... >> all they really wanna do is find out what's happening, so they can tell people... >> governments around the world all united to condemn this... >> as you can see, it's still a very much volatile situation... >> the government is prepared to carry out mass array... >> if you want free press in the new democracy let the journalists live. >> start with one issue ad guests on all sides of the debate. and a host willing to ask the tough questions and you'll get... the inside story ray suarez hosts inside story weekdays at 5pm et / 2pm pt only on al jazeera america
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. >> mask gunmen killed 12 people at a french magazine. among the dead are the editor and three other cartoonists. we take you straight to paris where french president hollande is speaking. >> they were remarkable by their influence, by